Ashley: [00:00:05] Welcome to Making Conversation, a podcast where we celebrate making in all its forms from amazing stories of inspiring makers and people to behind the scene peeks of building a startup in the tech and craft industry. 

Ashley: [00:00:19] We're in the middle of a series here on the podcast where we get to know everyone on the making team. If you haven't already caught up on some of these more recent episodes, I definitely recommend you do. Making is what it is because of a small and very special group of people, people that I feel incredibly lucky to work and experience life together with. Today I'm talking with someone I absolutely adore Jen Joyce, our head of marketing. It's likely you've seen or heard Jen as she is everywhere and does many things, including all of our TikTok and Instagram content. Jen has the biggest heart of anyone I know, and that comes through in our conversation many times in our team meetings, we all find ourselves in tears with Jen leading the charge. She is a cancer, after all. I feel incredibly grateful that she said yes when I asked her to join the making team. And I'm thrilled that you get to hear more of her story today. You can connect with Jen on the making app and Instagram @knitpurl. And with that, here's Jen. 

Jen [00:01:19] My making journey started kind of unbeknownst to me. It is. It is in my blood. So my mother's mom did lots of different kind of needlework. And apparently it was you know, she always had a project going. There was always something happening sitting around the house that my mom would see. And unfortunately, she passed away when I was very young. So I never got to know her. But you know, her her work definitely was around in our house growing up, and I inherited some of the things that she made, including these really awesome coasters that she embroidered. And like, there's like glass over them and they have like wood written around the outside of them. And, you know, we very carefully use them as they're very delicate, but they're so, so beautiful. And I actually have one of her project bags. It's kind of it looks like a carpet bag with like the two, like, legs on either side. And I keep yarn arm in there and it's in my living room. And it just makes me think of her because I know she was such an amazing woman, even though I did not know her very well. And on the other side of that, my father passed away recently, and my mom and I were going through some photos from when I was young. And we saw these photos of me with my mom and dad when I was very small and we were all wearing yellow sweaters. And my mom stopped and was like, Oh my gosh, I totally forgot. You're known to knit those sweaters for us. And so it was kind of a forgotten thing that No-No was a knitter, but it's just kind of come down through generations and it's in my blood and my creativity kind of came through different ways as I was growing up. When I was in elementary school, I would host craft camp for the kids in the cul de sac and I would make shirts for everyone using puffy paint, and they would come over and we would do paper crafts and drawing and painting and kind of, you know, the things that the crafts that kids do. So we did that a few years in a row. And, you know, also, art, our music was very, you know, very much kind of art for me growing up. And I played the flute in elementary school and I was in choir from elementary school through the end of high school. We actually got to sing at Disneyland, which was kind of cool. And in high school, I was in musical theater, just theater in general, but I definitely did a lot more of the musical theater side of it and marching band as well. I played the trumpet and the tuba. Tuba was very short lived. That was a situation where I just wanted to be in marching band so badly that I like learned how to play trumpet within a month and joined marching band. I don't know. It was very ambitious, but very much me as a human. I think that that story kind of embodies me pretty well. My fiber arts journey kind of started happening when I was dating this guy and his mom was a knitter, and I asked her to teach me and she was wonderful human and we had so much fun knitting together, but that's where it all started. And it still amazes me, even to this day, years later, that as fiber artists, we can sit down with a stick, you know, sticks or a hook and fiber and create art and clothing and an array of different things. It's just such a beautiful act and it's kind of an honor to be able to know how to do that stuff. It's very cool. 

Ashley: [00:05:35] Where else did your creative journey kind of show up? 

Jen [00:05:40] You know, working at making and learning all of these new crafts? Because when I first started working at making, I only knew how to knit. And now I know how to like crochet, embroider, like glass art. All of these classes that I've taken, I've like had to purchase storage for all of the new craft supplies that I have, but. It like even taking their embroidery class that I did and practicing and. Revisiting, you know, like seeing those coasters. It's like whether you believe even in somebody's spirit still being around or not. I think that I definitely felt like my grandmother was with me in one way or another, learning some of these things that, you know, she knew how to do. And same with my Nona. It's just been learning that she was a knitter, especially after learning of my father's passing. It just made me feel closer to her and and my family. So it's it's a beautiful thing. At making we talk a lot about how what we do as makers is so healing. And I think that that was the message she was trying to remind me is you have this you have all of these things around you that are going to help you get through this hard time of your father's passing. And I'm here with you while you do them. So it's just it was very special. Yeah. 

Ashley: [00:07:06] Almost like she sent you a little message in that way. She's like, it's going to be okay now. Like, she knows. She knows what you're going through right now. So you have this amazing background that not everyone knows about, but. And just knowing you and seeing what I've seen of your journey. Creativity is a part of everything that you do and have done in your career, too. 

Jen [00:07:35] When I first graduated high school, I actually was going to I what? I went to college for six months. I thought I was going to be a high school theater teacher. But, you know, after revisiting some of this and therapy, I think I bought myself out trying to get scholarships and get into the right college, you know, do all the things that they tell you to do in high school. And I bought myself out and just couldn't like it. I just couldn't do school at that point. So I moved back home, just kind of started working random jobs and. Then the opportunity presented itself to move to Seattle. It was kind of out of nowhere. I had never been to Seattle before, but I kind of was just like done with Phenix, Arizona. And, you know, I loved my family, but I needed I felt like I needed to do something to take that next step. And maybe that was because I didn't finish college or wasn't going to college as everybody else. You know, society tells you, these are the steps that you need to take as a human in this capitalistic society. But I needed to do something, and I think that that was a big thing. So I told myself if it if if it was meant to be, it was going to be easy. And the fact that I sold my car, found a job, found an apartment online, you know, all of these different things. Within one month I was in Seattle. It was very much meant to be. And I think that this city and the people in it that have kind of I've met and have influenced me along the way. There is a reason that I that I moved here and I still say that it was maybe one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. I started working at a hotel downtown, and any time that there was anything that was links to creativity, I was asked to do it. So, you know, creating packages for the hotel, writing copy for the website, that type of thing. And finally, one day, the president of the company, Providence Hotels, Bashar, came to me and said, hey, so we want to try this social media thing. You're the creative one. How would you feel about testing it? And this is back when Instagram was not even a thing yet. I'm maybe showing my age a little bit, but that's okay. Instagram wasn't a thing, and it was like Facebook and Twitter, and that's kind of where my marketing journey started. You know, I never went, you know, didn't go to college for marketing anything. Everything that I have learned through, you know, is through doing, which I don't know. I don't have college debt, so maybe it's a better way of doing it. No way. But utilizing the creative side of my brain definitely kind of got me to where I am now. And from the hotels, I made lots of connections, including you and David. That's kind of where we first started for first met, started our friendship. And, you know, tweet ups were a thing back then where they were meet ups from that you would have people from Twitter come together and that is David attended, actually attended quite a few of the events that I threw, which was it was awesome. And then I started working for a little company called Uber. There was this amazing woman who is still my one of my mentors today. Michelle. Hi, Michelle Broderick. And she sent me an email one day and I was like, so there is a new company starting and we are looking for a community manager and it's called Uber and I would love for you to come join us. And so it kind of ended you know, I ended my career in hotels at that time and. Started my startup journey. It was wild. It was very wild. Everything that the community managers did was everything related to the writer side of marketing, especially in the beginning. So I was employee 31 of Uber and Seattle was the third city to launch. So I was definitely there like not from the beginning, but fairly close. And, you know, all of the creative, all of the creativity that I had went towards recruiting writers to try out, you know, this new thing where you pushed a button and a car showed up to take you somewhere. So that was pretty that was pretty incredible. I definitely learned a lot from from those first few years especially and for Michelle. Very thankful for her. 

Ashley: [00:12:54] We have this new series that's going to come out where you and I sit down and we talk about startups and our experiences at Uber and all these other tech companies. I'm really excited to do that and I'm excited for everyone to hear about that. But when I hear you share about your journey, I think the thing that stands out to me the most is you just get in there like you learned through experience. There's not really much that holds you back in terms of thinking that you can or can't do something like. You just get in there because you've taught yourself everything. And I think there's a lot of people that are mentors to you, but. That is who you are. At the very core, I think a lot of our team is like that and that's kind of the beauty of us all coming together. Self-taught in many ways, but also learning through experience. 

Jen [00:13:47] I think that going back to not being somebody who. I mean. Let's just, you know, let's just start let's kind of start with like how I feel like our generation is like the first generation. And I'm not saying it never happened before because it definitely did. You know, there's an entire feminist movement that had been going on before. You know, we were even the thoughts in our parents minds, but I think we were the first generation that really kind of looked at what society was telling us we needed to be as women, you know, or even humans that can have children and. Decided that it was okay to not go down that specific path that everybody else, you know, went down. And especially growing up in a religious household or even in the church, I would say, you know, my my family is still all religious. And, you know, we have a great relationship. So we respect each other. I'm not religious anymore, but especially growing up in in the Christian church, it is you get married and have babies and you know, in the middle of that, you maybe go to college or you, you know, you kind of choose your own path. And I. I'm not married. My babies are my dogs. I did not go to college. You know, I moved away from my hometown. All of these things that, you know, if people didn't do, you know, if people went to college and they had babies and they got married and they stayed in their hometown, that's great. You know, that's what they want to do. That's great for them. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But I felt like I needed to do things different. And I think that kind of stepping outside of how society. DE has been directing us kind of played a little bit of a role in me. Just knowing that I kind of had to just do, you know, I just had to do because I was making my own story and I wasn't going to allow anybody else to. Write that for me. And whether that was, you know, within work or within just my own day to day life, I think that that kind of played a role in me just being like, okay, we're just going to do this and we're going to try it and we're going to test it and we're going to, you know, and again, that was a lot of what I learned in in doing what I did, as, you know, in marketing. Like like I said when I first started out, it was. Here. Let's try this social media thing. I didn't even have a Facebook at that point because I was like, I just have MySpace, you know? Very proud of that. And so it was like, okay, now I have to make a Facebook account my own because I need to figure this out and I need to know what I'm doing. And then it was just like testing and doing. And if something didn't work, that was okay. Because it was. It was just something that you didn't have to give your energy to and pay attention to. And that kind of, you know, just kind of followed me through my career and through my life. 

Ashley: [00:17:17] Our experience in tech was very different and very similar, but very different than, I think what people are starting to experience today, or at least what is beginning to come out as like a bar of how women non-binary are treated and and put in places of leadership. Then stepping into emerging technology, there's this, I guess, feeling like we have something to prove. Somehow there is this idea in our heads that the people around us, predominantly men, somehow somehow had more experience or like knew more because they've been the pillars in business for so long. Or upheld as that. Oh, who are we? We don't. We have so much more to prove because we don't have a college degree or, you know, we don't have this other experience. And that's been a real mind shift for me over the last I mean, it's been really happening since the beginning of my own tech career, but. I feel that when I hear you talk about how that is that is part of it, how we kind of get down and figure things out. 

Jen [00:18:35] The reason that I started working for Uber is one like I think, you know, I felt it was like time for me to do the next thing. At that point, I had been managing the social media for all of the hotels in that company, and there was really no other place for me to go. And not that I was like trying to climb to the top or anything like that, but it was like, okay, I've learned what I what I have learned here, and I'm not sure that there is a next stop for me, especially with what I was really wanting to do, which is fine. And I still, you know, I love the people who I worked with in that company and so grateful for for everything that I learned there. But I think that I needed something new. And the fact that this was all very new to me, I mean, I wasn't going into Uber being like, I'm going in to work for a startup and I'm going in because of shares. And like all of these things that I saw people joining the company, you know, starting with a very, very tiny team, you know, not just in Seattle, but like Uber overall and seeing all of these people join that just wanted to be there because it was the next big thing. And I was just wanting to be there because a I did like some of my coworkers, most of them at that point, and we just had a lot of fun. But it was a challenge, you know, I mean, especially here in Seattle, where people were not like town cars were not a thing like in New York. Their whole marketing strategy was focused on luxury and, you know, not having to carry cash or like have a car service and but, you know, town cars and black cars in New York, that's like a normal everyday thing where Seattle, it's like, what? Like, I don't want to show it. Like we had like CEOs of companies here that told us that they did, that the only reason they didn't use Uber was because they didn't want to show up in a black town car, like roll up anywhere. And I was like, Why? I love showing up to Linda's, you know, to hang out with my friends and a black guy that is so cool. But we had to change our marketing strategy to focus on the tech. I mean, it was just it was the challenge of all of that. And and, you know, learning from also learning from these people, just mostly men, but learning from the other community managers around the country, different marketing techniques and things that I, you know, I had focused a lot on social media and some of these other people hadn't. And so it was kind of a group effort in a way, and it was very cool to put all of our skills together and grow together in that way. And I was very lucky because most of the people, you know, who I worked with on the marketing side in the beginning of Uber were just like very caring and kind people. And I'm still friends with a lot of them to this day. 

Ashley: [00:21:31] So where did you go from there? What happened next? 

Jen [00:21:35] You know, it's funny. Most of the people who left Uber, especially around the time that I did that, had worked there. As long as I did, it was just a little around five and a half years. They all took like a year off. And I was like, I just wasn't ready for that. And financially I also couldn't do it. So we're kind of tied to having to go back to work. But I worked for a fintech company called Simple Again, Michel. I got an email from her one day and she was like, What are you doing? I'm on down. And so I worked for Simple for about a year. And then it kind of got to a point again with that, with simple that it was like I knew that there wasn't going to be any more learning that was happening. Like, you know, it was, it was just a point where I just needed to, like, jump into something else that I hadn't done before. I had done all of the things that I was doing at that company before. And, you know, it's like I needed a little bit more. I needed more of a challenge. And to be honest. Agency life always like kind of scared me a little bit, and especially because I never wanted to go back to working 60 to 80 hours a week. And that was kind of like a thing that I had heard about agency life and also the fact that, like, you don't really get to pick your clients and like what you do because that was always something that fueled me. Like I loved the brand of the hotels, which are actually all art inspired. Every hotel. Every hotel was art inspired, which I just realized is another connection to making. And then Uber, it was like this brand new thing, super, super big challenge. You know, it's with agencies you can't pick like your client, you can't pick what you're doing. You're kind of just like, this is the problem and you have to solve it. But then I realized that could actually be really interesting. And so there is an agency here in Seattle and now it's worldwide. But at the time it was seattle, agency called Wong Doody.  Mr. Wong and Mr. Doody came together and made an agency and I had a few friends who had worked there for years and they loved it. They loved it. And the people who worked there and I mean some of the people who had worked there had been there for like 20 years. So I knew I was kind of stepping into. Another space where people felt appreciated and loved what they did because. Know what I mean? It's very rare that somebody would stick around in a place for that long, for years and years and years if they didn't feel those things. So I bugged my friends who worked there and got an interview and started working there. And it's funny because I automatically started working for local credit union. So it was another, you know, banking linked thing. And, you know, worked at one day for three years and got their social media back up and running and made my dog Marcello, a star in many commercials. And one of the things that I really loved to about that is Tracy Wong, who was based in the Seattle office, would be different clients, even though even if they weren't clients that I was directly working with, we would all come together and do these big brainstorming sessions and he would present the problem that the client had. And we would all go in and just like throw out all of these ideas and get together and just like, I don't know, I do that same thing in our marketing meetings a lot at making good stuff falls out of those. So that was one of the things that another thing that I really enjoyed about that place is just the creativity ran through everything. It was very much appreciated. 

Ashley: [00:25:31] We believe that the simple act of making can transform your life and in turn change our world. This is why making exists. It all starts with inspiration. We are inspired by people, by places, by experiences. A beautiful photo, a soft wall, a kind heart. These are the things that motivate us to make. Making us here to disrupt systems. Systems of oppression. Systems that only benefit certain groups of people. And systems that extract. We are here to challenge the narrative of profit over people. We believe a company can be found in for the purpose of good and change the world for better, while also creating opportunity at scale. Makers are tired of the monolith. The few companies that comprise our only choices of how we can act, how we transact, and how we learn. Makers are ready for a better alternative, and that is what we are building. Becoming a break collective member helps us accomplish this. Visit makingzine.com To learn more. 

Jen [00:26:41] Because of, you know, the pandemic and everything that had been brought to part time. I want duty. I started my own consulting business and it was all fine and dandy. And then one day I see an email from you in my inbox and basically like asking for help with social media for making magazine. And I'm going to be fully on it, fully honest with you. I had never heard of making magazine and I don't know why. Like, it was just not on my radar at that point. I wasn't like I was following some, you know, I mean, I was following like people in the knitting community, but I don't know why it never crossed my path. It's like there was zero reason why it shouldn't have, you know what I mean? And so I like, looked into it. I was like, Oh my gosh, how have I never heard of this? This photography is beautiful. Like, the magazine seems really cool. And I knew, you know, I kind of knew you and David from before and I was super stoked. And so we started chatting. I put together a social strategy for making zine Instagram account first, and then you were like, So we're also doing this other thing. And I, you know, let's talk about this, too. And so you told me all about the app, and I was just like, Oh, my gosh, this makes so much sense. Like so many people that I know are starting to get, like, so tired of Instagram and like all of the different changes that it was having. And not that we're trying to be Instagram making, but like there was so much room for a new place for makers to be together and share and just, you know, pull creativity from each other. And so I got really excited about all of that that you, you know, that you had told me. And so we talked about how the go to market strategy was to start a TikTok account. And I was like, I don't even have my own. So again, going back to me, just jumping in with two feet, I started my own TikTok account just because that's like the best way with social media. I mean, the best way to learn is to do. And I felt like I needed to get comfortable on TikTok with my own account before I could even start doing anything for making. So I started my own account and we continued talking. You were just like, I feel like this is meant to be. And I felt the same way. And it was just two things that I love marketing and crafting and knitting coming together in one. And, you know, you were just like we I want you to be our head of marketing. It felt so meant to be the timing. The. The process of how we got from, you know, me consulting to actually, you know, working for making it just everything felt like it was happening at the right time in the right place. 

Ashley: [00:30:00] And it's funny because I remember feeling like taking on the app and having the magazine and everything. It was just a lot. It was like so much. And I am a firm believer in finding people who are a really good culture fit and whose heart is in what they do and believe in what we're doing. I think it's so important. Making is more than just a job for all of us. We kind of need that. That crew on our spaceship. I was saying this to Jerry last night. Every single person on our team right now is like the Ride or Die crew. This is like the core group that spring this to fruition. David said to me one day, I said, I need help. I need someone who gets this space. It has to be someone who can understand what it is that we're trying to do, which is not just sell people. Things like this is really about someone who has a heart, like who believes in what they're doing and applies whatever their skills are to this space and can be an extension of what already exists at making. This is a common thing that David does. You know who you should reach out to. And then I'm usually like, What? I haven't talked to them in ten years. You need to reach out to Jenn. And who? Jenn Joyce. I'm like. Like, maybe talk to her on Twitter, like, 12 years ago. And he was like, I think she would like what you're doing. Like, how does he even know? Like, didn't even talk to you, you know? And so that's what started it. He knew everything. She started an agency with her partner and he, like, just knows these things. It's like who he is and. I sent the email. I was like, She's not going to reply. Like, I don't know why I'm sending this. 

Jen [00:32:04] Oh. 

Ashley: [00:32:05] And you did. And we hopped on and I remember feeling in that very first phone call, like I remember vividly, I was like, Oh my God, Jen needs to be on our team, but it's going to have to come from her first. And I think after two or three months or something like that, we were on the phone and I remember, I think we were almost like both thinking the same thing but like didn't, didn't want to be the first one to say it. I love, you know, I love, you know. 

Jen [00:32:31] Yeah, exactly. It was like we were like two, like, teenagers on a date and it was like we both wanted the same thing but didn't know how to say it. And yeah, that was very much how I remember the moment exactly. I was sitting on my bed and I had just presented you my tech talk strategy. But because I remember before that I had told Lars I was like, I she wants to ask me something and I think she wants me to work for making. And I really hope that that's what it is. And I don't even know what she's like, what the position would be or anything. But I'm hoping that it's, you know, that she wants me to work at making and then you're you were just, you know, I was sitting here and you were just like, will you be our head of marketing? And I was like, I do. 

Ashley: [00:33:21] And it's not unlike me to just say what I think. In the very beginning, I always make my intentions known, which is hilarious, actually. It's got me into a lot of trouble too, but I've known with every person on our team that they were meant to be a part of making. We're at this like very interesting part of a startup that not a lot of people get to be a part of. Like it is the very, very, very beginning when you hear startup stories on podcasts or blogs or, you know, years later after they've become much larger, whatever. These are not the beginning parts that you hear of often. What I mean by the early, early days is it's taking an idea out of someone's brain, this vision or whatever it is, and trying to create a reality out of it. And one of the thing that I have to remind myself constantly is like, everyone is not me. Everyone cannot think or do or be me. And it's not like they need to be. But I needed someone who understood as close to possible what we were trying to do as someone who understands vision. And you got it like you got it so quick. And I think that's the thing that excited me the most was not only that you got it, but you were so excited about it. And that gets me excited because and we were working really hard, but we're having a lot of fun. We all come with a lot of baggage too. I mean, I won't say all you and I, you and I come with a lot of baggage from our past experience and tech and making is trying to rewrite that story of what it means to be a tech company, what it means to be a women non-binary, diversely led team and. A lot of that is a personal journey. We talk about all the time that making is as much a personal journey as it is our job. It's like making this playing this role. So I have a few questions for you. How has making influenced your personal journey? 

Jen [00:35:35] Oh, boy, we only have 15 minutes because I have therapy. Gosh, where do I start? There are so many things flying around in my head. First of all, I think one of the things that really has come out of all of my different career paths is that I love creating community and I'm pretty good at it. Like being able to say that I'm good at something is not easy. That is also something that, you know, I've definitely become more well versed at over the last few years of therapy. But that is is one of my favorite things. And, you know, I think that. Rewriting how we are creating community not only within a space of craft space, but also within a tech space where we're not just focused on a certain person, you know, we're we are focused on building this beautifully diverse community of people and art. It's just different. It's different than anything, you know, that I have done. And it's beautiful. But also rewriting all of the things that were taught to me while working for a new start up that kind of didn't have guardrails or bumpers, not having to work 50 or 60 to 80 hours a week. That is we have work life balance, that making. It's beautiful. The guilt, though, that sometimes I feel when I close my computer at five, you're nodding your head right now. I just want everyone to know we got this and it still comes through. Is it less and less the more that I work at making? Yes. But is it still there? Of course, because I mean, with Uber, I would bring my computer to brunch. My friends hated it, but that was how much we were working, you know? And I think that tearing that down within something that's been so ingrained in you connected to startups is difficult. But it's happening. And it's it's again, it's so beautiful that we are we are changing what a startup looks like, acts like and feels like. And it's so important that we are doing this because everything is going to be changing within the next few years. I mean, you kind of already feel it, right? Like everybody is like opening their eyes to the fact that we are all controlled by capitalism and we are totally allowed to love what we do. And it can be our you know, our job at making is so much to each and every one of us, but that doesn't mean that it has to be our entire life and it can have connections and, you know, and things to our life. But it doesn't have to be a morning to sleep, time to even waking up in the middle of the night, which I still sometimes do with ideas. And that's amazing that we are changing that. You know, you and I talk a lot about how we have a lot of things to rewrite with our story of working in tech, and we have started rewriting a lot of that. I'm so thankful that we kind of we have this together because I think that the people who we work with are absolutely amazing. But none of them have worked in the areas that we have and they all have. You know, they I'm sure, you know, everybody has their different things and everybody has things that, you know, trauma through work and and and life and all of that that they bring. But it's it's a it's just a different beast. When you've worked in tech as a woman, especially small startups that get big. And the fact that we're we're rewriting that all and that we have each other to like lean on during that. It's a beautiful thing. I've said it's a beautiful thing a lot during this hour. So, you know. 

Ashley: [00:39:52] It's hard not to dig deeper into that now, but that everything you just said is exactly what we're going to be extrapolating on in our kind of special edition podcast episodes is rewriting that and what that means, setting a little bit of the stage of what has existed for those that don't know in tech and not just tech like any company environment really, I guess, but from our perspective within tech and as women and how we're attempting to do it very differently and kind of all the different layers of that, I think it's really important. But I will say it, it is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's getting up there with as hard as being a parent. I mean, it's just different. It is different. And I guess being a mom of three now and ten years under my belt as a mom, I feel like, okay, I got this a little bit figured out just a little bit and but trying to do things differently in kind of these very big standardized ways of how startups are run or how they raise money, the people they hire, the culture they create, the product that they create, how they work with their users or customers. All these are how they market. Like all these different things, it's hard to be one of the first because there isn't a lot of. Examples. And honestly, there's not a lot of support for doing things differently. So to close this out. When you think about the future of making. What excites you the most? 

Jen [00:41:36] I think the thing that excites me the most about making the app and the marketplace and what we're building is that I mean, it's kind of goes along with what we just talked about. We're doing things different. We're breaking out of the mold of what social media and marketplaces have been since, you know, all of these things started. I mean, if you look at the people who have been running these these companies and why they're doing it, it doesn't have anything to do with the people that are using the product. We have an opportunity to uplift and create something that is for our audience and with good intentions and with heart and with love. And I'm not saying that as a company we don't care about making money because, well, that's bullshit. Of course we do. We have to, like, pay the people and build the product, and we have to be able to put food in our mouths and all of that stuff. But when you set your intentions from the very first moment that you start building something differently than what every other company has, you know, within social media, within marketplaces that you see now, you're bound to change something for the better and in a very big way. And I it's it's hard to see that because it's I mean, I don't know, has it ever been done where the intention is set at the very, you know, get go that this is what we want to do and we want to build a beautifully diverse, you know, community of makers and then this social app that, you know, and give all of this, you know, give opportunity to all of these people through a marketplace and then more, I'm sure, as you know, I mean, our app is going to build and grow and we're going to learn new things. It's never been done. And that's that's the most exciting thing to me. 

Ashley: [00:43:54] We're talking about creating something. This way at scale. Like big. 

Jen [00:44:00] Yeah. Big. Big. 

Ashley: [00:44:02] If there was a message or an intention you want to leave people with. What would that. 

Jen [00:44:06] Be? This one's hard. There's so many different things. Never forget that making can be healing. What we do when you know, whether it's every day or when we have time is so beautiful. And, you know, crocheting, knitting, class, art, dyeing, yarn, you know, all of all of it is just it is so beautiful and good for our souls. I feel like every time that I have an off day or my anxiety is just through the roof or I miss my family or I'm sad about my dad or, you know, just something didn't go right. I can sit down and pick up my knitting or another craft that I'm working on. And it just brings me the sense of peace, whether you're listening to this and you have, you know, no idea how to knit or crochet, and you just kind of stumbled upon this podcast. I highly recommend learning, learning something. And anything that is art is healing. And just don't forget that. 

Ashley: [00:45:25] The biggest of thanks to everyone involved in this week's episode. I hope you'll join me each week as we talk and learn from more fascinating makers for podcast notes and transcriptions. Visit our blog at makingzine.com Have a wonderful week!